Basketball Wales have rejected the option to merge into a single British basketball federation after the Olympics, putting the future of Great Britain basketball in doubt.
At present, the home nations of Basketball Wales, Basketball Scotland, and England Basketball, are all separate entities with independent membership of FIBA, however, after London won the Olympic bid in 2005, the three were given special dispensation to compete as Great Britain for the Olympics.
This special dispensation ends after the Olympics, and the team’s place at the Olympics was given on the condition it would be decided by June 30 this year on the structure of the sport going forward. FIBA have indicated they will be prepared to register Great Britain as an independent federation and as an independent member of FIBA, but only if Scotland, Wales and England are prepared to relinquish their individual FIBA memberships in favour of a single British basketball federation.
However, in a lengthy statement released on Basketball Wales’ website today, the Welsh board said they intend to retain their independent status:
“After careful consideration, the decision of the Board of Basketball Wales at this time is as follows:
- To continue to promote and encourage a positive relationship with its colleagues involved in basketball in England and Scotland.
- To retain its status as an independent national federation member of FIBA.
- To use its best endeavours, to promote the game of basketball in Wales, to enlarge participation, to make basketball readily available on a social and recreational basis, and to promote an excellence within its elite structure which will enable Wales to participate in international competition at the highest level.
- To provide and implement an ongoing vision and strategy for basketball in Wales and to secure appropriate funding and resources to enable the best advancement of basketball in Wales and the excellence of national teams representing Wales.”
Has self-interest prevailed?
More to come.
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{ 35 comments… read them below or add one }
leave them in the back water they belong, england and scotland can make their own GB!!
I would like to clarify a few things from the perspective of a Welsh International. GB have done absolutely nothing to benefit basketball in Wales since they came into being, no funding, no support with grass roots, no coach education, absolutely nothing, and have shown no desire to do so. GB has only itself to blame, if any interest was shown in developing the sport of basketball in Wales then the outcome may have been different.
Basically what British Basketball and many others have said is that is our duty to give up our status within FIBA purely for their benefit. There have been no signs or any future positives for Welsh basketball as a result of a merger to balance against this.
Myself and every other Welsh or Scottish international (and junior internationals) would be denied the honour of representing their country (something which I am very proud to do) so that Ben Gordon can maybe play in the Olympics, if he can bothered to turn up….I find this to be very unfair, especially given that it is not an issue in many other prominent sports, but would understand the necessity of that sacrifice if it would benefit basketball in Wales and this country as a whole. This however is not the case, while British Basketball has done some commendable things in England, Wales has been completely ignored and I would imagine Scotland haven’t exactly received their fair share.
While I do not completely agree with the way GB has gone about things in England, with everything geared almost exclusively towards elite performance, I can see the benefits this would have upon top level basketball in England. However, if the only focus is elite basketball in England, this could be done through EB.
I encourage people to read the statement from Basketball Wales before suggesting we be left in “the back water (where?) they belong”. Although I may be considered biased on the subject due to what I could stand to lose, I am not so selfish as to put 10 years of international basketball for myself ahead of the development of the sport. Unfortunately the short-sightedness of many “GB” fans has been deeply disappointing, I have read many opinions that suggest Wales are being selfish, and not seeing the big picture. I suppose we are being selfish, in as much as the BW board’s primary concern is the development of basketball in Wales, but I would argue that this is far less selfish than GB. The facts are there, GB basketball has done nothing for basketball in Wales, yet expects BW to vote to give up the right to govern itself and participate in international competition “for the greater good” with nothing in return. This is essentially like Manchester United asking Crewe Alexandra to give up their status as a Football League club so that United’s reserves can play in League 1, without any benefit whatsoever to their players, fans, and the people of Crewe.
I don’t wish to start an argument here about the merits of GB basketball or Basketball Wales, I am just trying to show some people the other side of the argument. Welsh basketball stood to lose a lot from a merger, with no discernible benefit. You may feel that the BW should have seen the “big picture”, but to me it was a complete no brainer. Read the article and you will see that there were several prominent members of FIBA present at the meeting where it was decided, and they have supported Basketball Wales’ decision.
Feel free to blame people like me, and the BW for holding basketball in Britain back if you wish, but these are my feelings on the subject, feelings I felt it necessary to express, and feelings shared almost unanimously throughout welsh basketball. I am not here to hide behind the anonymity of the internet, it is fairly obvious who I am. I hope this may help some of you who have criticised the decision to see things from another perspective, and if it doesn’t I hope you will at least respect that Wales does have genuine motives for rejecting the merger, even if you don’t agree with them.
Regards,
A proud Welshman
GB basketbal has run an elite performance program since its formation.
Its remit was never community development in the regions and I would love you to point me to the ‘commendable things it has done in England’.
What are they?
Under the federal scheme Wales would still be responsible for development in its area, even so far as putting forward a team in the Commonwealth Games (thus allowing you to represent your country if you are not good enough). To say the responsibility would transfer to the overriding GB basketball program is wrong.
This is about protection of empires, sadly. I am delighted that future Welsh kids will aspire to playing games against Andorra and Gibraltar. I would think they would be better served aspiring to play against the USA and Spain. This decision potentially destroys such aspirations. Sad.
I have to say that I am very dissapointed in the attitude of BW towards the Gb basketball umbrella. I am sad to say that Welsh talent will never now (and I fear English and Scottish talent) get the chance to play against WORLD class opposition because they “fear” of losing there grass roots development.
As has been stated above GB basketball was set up for Elite level. It never had the remit to develop grass roots basketball, that was down to the country associations. Why would then any potential investors in Welsh Basketball want to invest in it? I can see that all the money invested will go towards Scotland and England now. I am sorry to say that Wales have made a big mistake with this.
I’m in such a shock about this. Can someone clarify for me: can Basketball Wales not continue to run the national youth programmes U13 to veterans and enter International Competitions? The only one they could not enter would be the Fiba division C competition, but they could go to, say the U15 international tournament in Denmark (where the England U15 currently compete)? So the reason Wales pulls out is because the national teams could no longer compete in Division C? And this is the justification for forever denying a proud Welsh player the chance at competing at Eurobasket or even the Olympics (according to BW, Great Britain’s chances are minimal for that ever to happen anyway, so sod aspiration). Just think, if you were a Welsh player with dual nationality, and at U15, you and your parents have to make a choice about representing your country, achieving your highest potential, and make yourself visible to scouts, the choice will be Wales? If it were for GB, that choice would never have to made and you could proudly represent Wales in GB at the highest possible level–it is actually up to the Welsh federation to enable a Welsh player to reach her/his highest potential and pride in representing the country. This decision by the WB, as far as I can read, condemns Wales basketball, paradoxically, to the current representation of Wales on the national level. There is no aspiration, hopeful vision, but an immense protection of self-interest, which actually reduces the chance of Welsh excellence rather than enhances it.
I have read the WB statement carefully. Most of it seems to suggest that ‘there’s nothing in it for us’ and that’s why we say no. I disagree. It’s up to Wales Basketball to ensure that Wales produces the talent so they can occupy the places in the Great Britain teams, proudly wearing their Welsh nationality, in a way that Kieran Achara and Robert Archibald, for example, do for Scotland in team GB.
Duco
The situation with the national teams is that Wales would have representation until 2016. At this stage the agreement with FIBA is that none of the home nations would have status internationally, it would only be GB. This effects the chances of any welsh player ever having an international career as well as those from Scotland and England. As it stands, players for the most part, have to get out of GB if they want to play at the highest level, and from a welsh perspective “the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few”.
Two questions:
1. National Team international status means Division C only? Again, essentially an international friendly tournament.
2. As I stated elsewhere in here in a different way, who are ‘the many’? Can someone do an analysis? I contend that most of in the Wales teams have actually tried out for England teams at the various levels and would have chosen England if they had made it. And most of them have been developed outside of Wales. The GB situation would solve this. Everyone can try out for GB and still hold the Welsh nationality; if you don’t make it in GB, you can still play for Wales, except not in that Division C competition. But there are plenty of international tournaments not organized by GB.
Duco
You have 4 teams currently playing at GB level, senior men and women, U20′s men and women. So if they all play a tournament in the same year there will be 48 players at the tournaments (12 in each squad)
If England, Scotland and Wales all had tournaments in the same year at senior level and u20′s level men and women and each team had 12 players you are talking 144 players. That means that 66% of those players who now have an opportunity to play will no longer get this opportunity. That number does not include U16 and U14 squads.
Those are the many.
All those teams can still play, just not in the FIBA tournaments. Just think for example of the British Universities tournament and more tournaments where you can highlight your national team. There can still be Welsh, English, and Scottish age group teams and they will continue to run alongside GB. It’s the hang up on the FIBA tournaments that’s baffling. Why not reserve those for the elite. That’s what elite sport is, the few. Pyramid of success. The Welsh decision flattens the pyramid.
I am surprised at this result, I know that many people in scotland are on the fence, but I did not realise that was also the case in wales.
People in scotland are mostly undecided because they believe that we are not 100 miles away from being able to compete at Euro B level every year (at youth if not senior level) and many believe that sending a team and coaches to Euro B is worth more to basketball in scotland than having one or two players each year getting the experience of playing for GB and I can understand that point of view as scottish players capable of playing for GB will still have many opportunities to play professional basketball, if not top level international basketball.
However, I would have thought that from a wales perspective Euro C competitions are not really worth a lot more than playing in friendly competitions which have been promised by GB.
Personally I was hoping that the Wales vote would put some pressure on Scotland to go forward as part of GB, but I fear that a No vote from wales is enough to swing the vote from scotland the same way. People will rightly say that scotland have more to lose than wales in this merger and use that to enforce their side of the argument.
The GB program is geared solely for elite basketball run and administered by the BBF since 2006.
Just how much this will help any of the Home Counties in their development of junior players is questionable, even though each would still be responsible for its own development programs.
It is probably true that Welsh basketball has received no help or input from the BBF since the inception of the BBF and arguably would continue to receive little if any help or input. However, the same argument applies to both Scotland and England.
Would not the mere presence of a GB team, especially if it contained Welsh players, not help in promoting Welsh basketball?
In the Schedule of the BBF there is almost nothing about elite junior development, which, one must assume, would also be the responsibility of the BBF.
If the BBF was to come fully into existence, there would be no opportunity for junior players to represent their country against “world class” (national) teams in FIBA tournaments, although there would be the possibility of playing in lower international competitions, such as Cherbourg, Belgium, Denmark etc.
To date Wales has achieved little in its development of junior players, as evidenced by the fact that there are no Welsh players in the present GB team. Scotland has two players in the GB team, but Scotland Basketball is very much “on the fence” as to whether it will agree to the BBF.
If Scotland was to vote for Independence, Scottish basketball would have to withdraw from the GB program, thus leaving England as the only participant country in the BBF.
England is represented by a number of GB players whose “Englishness” is questionable, although it is the case that the GB team is, and always will be, supported mainly by English basketball. England has a population that far outweighs Scotland and Wales.
None of the millions of pounds of money that has been put aside for the GB program has filtered down to any of the Home Counties; that was not its purpose.
Equally, it would be doubtful if any sponsorship that may, possibly, be attracted to any future GB program would in turn filter down to the Home Counties. Each Home County would, as is the present case, be totally responsible for attracting its own sponsorship.
Whether the presence of a GB program would enable the EB to achieve any more success in this regard than it has to date is questionable.
A huge amount of hard work and effort has gone in to the establishment of the GB team and its participation in the forthcoming Olympics, and there is no doubt that a drastic re-organization of basketball (at least in England) is mandatory for any major development of the sport.
Whether the BBF and GB program will, or would have been, the catalyst for this development would now seem to be just a topic for conversation.
Wales is unlikely to ever produce more than 1 or 2 players capable of representing GB, and even that is very unlikely without an increase in funding. We don’t produce many elite athletes or substantial height, and last time I checked there wasn’t exactly many players in the squad who don’t fit either of those criteria. Even in football which receives masses of funding only Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsey are good enough to represent GB, and Bale has come through the English system. We simply do not have the talent, or the funding to be producing players capable of competing at the highest level. You may criticise the lack of aspiration, but if you were familiar with Welsh basketball you may consider it to be realism. It’s all well and good to aspire to have players playing at the highest level, but when this is such an unlikely goal it is foolish to put the aspirations of one or two potential individuals (who realistically are unlikely to materialise) ahead of the numerous others who proudly represent Wales. And for the record I used my dual nationality to gain experience with England up to u16 level for exactly the reasons you give. I am in no way suggesting the system in Wales is perfect, or even good, but GB simply did not offer any incentive for Wales to agree to the merger, if you take your personal opinions out of it and look objectively from the BW’s point of view, it is an absolute no brainer
There has been a lot of positive change for British basketball in recent years that has been rewarded with outstanding results on the court by senior men and women and hopefully will see more success at the Olympics this summer. Critically, the most important and necessary change for basketball has not happened – that is, replacing the decision makers in the home country federations and the sport as a whole.
History shows us that when any of major basketball organisations in this country come under a spotlight or, in the case of national federations their funding is placed at risk, the great and the good of “British Basketball plc” announce new initiatives and try to present an appetite for genuine change (Ahem, can you hear me BBU?) but strip away the spin and we see the same people in charge with the same attitudes very much intact – that is, what’s in it for me and how do I keep control of my little fiefdom?
This story is just an example of more of the same. The board members of the national federations (and in that I include England and Scotland) have always resisted consolidation behind a GB flag so nobody should be surprised at this news, not because the Welsh Federation are any more selfish than the others but because the people making the decisions are the same ones that have held this sport back ever since I can remember.
Basketball is a hugely popular sport the world over but it’s a sport that has never fulfilled its potential in Britain even though every few years it seems on the verge of making a breakthrough. C4 live television coverage in the 1980s went to waste as did the massive investment of the 1990s which brought professional teams filled largely with British players to the major arenas across the country. Many will remember the suicidal decision to jump ship from Sky to NTL without so much as a courtesy call to Sky Sports. Unfortunately, basketball is littered with examples of mismanagement for which nobody has been held accountable.
Sadly it looks like another huge opportunity is about to go begging and I bet that the people in power will retain their positions so they can screw things up the next time round.
No one can say with any degree of certainty or confidence, what would be the future of the sport if the BBF and GB programmes were to come into existence and the three Home Counties merged into one as GB.
It is, or would be, the case that the three Home Counties would still continue very much in the way they do at present with all the same responsibilities.
Given this, I cannot see that any real, major, improvements would become apparent in either the administration of the game in England, or in the development and structure of the game.
Everything that Martin has stated is true, although what Dave has written re British players is of course an exaggeration. The advent of American players helped enormously to improve the standard of the game and of junior players (to which I can personally testify).
For more than 35 years in the sport I have been consistently bemoaning the fact that one of the reason our sport has not developed, indeed has gone way downhill, is almost solely due to its administrators and officers; administrators many of whom are simply holding down a job and (Executive) officers who are protecting their status. ( “Big fish in a little pool”, springs to mind.)
One only has to look at the extremely poor standard of the BBL (there are junior teams in European countries who could adequately compete in the BBL, let alone senior teams in the lower European divisions) and the level of EBL and junior league competitions to realise how the sport has been allowed to deteriorate.
When Spain won the European Championships, (as has Serbia in past years), the celebrations of the country were amazing. When Novak Djokovic won Wimbledon last year, just about the whole of Serbia turned out in Belgrade to welcome him “home”.
Other than, possibly, football this would just not happen in England. The general public is not, and never has been particularly interested in (the minor) sports, and it is this lack of a sports culture that is one of the major stumbling blocks for English basketball, and I suspect, Scotland and Wales.
There is no doubt that a complete and thorough overhaul of English basketball is required, but would the BBF/GB program have this desired effect?
Many people, including myself, want to see a GB team, it would immediately provide another, higher (?) level of basketball, but there are questions to be asked about theactual benefits it would have on English basketball
It is likely that a GB team would raise the profile of the sport, but, just how much it would raise the profile is questionable. One assumes this would depend in large part upon how successful any GB team would be. If the GB team was not successful might this do more harm than good?.
Would English players in any GB team, have played in English competition, or would they be players that are representitive of England but have never played in the country?
I wonder how many people are thinking solely about GB seniors when of course, GB juniors would be, one assumes, very much part of the program.
It would mean that junior players could no longer play for their country against other national teams in any FIBA competition and thus take away one level of competition. (In the case of England, playing in Division A).
As a national coach I would want to play teams at and of this standard. Playing in lower level international competitions against club teams or “minor” country national teams outside of FIBA would not have the same appeal
It would of course be a great honour for a 17 year old to be able to say “I played for Great Britain” but this honour would by definition be reserved for just a select few. However, it might well encourage junior players to develop their fundamentals, skills and playing standard such that they would then be considered for any GB selection.
In the end it must be that the advent of a GB team probably can do no harm whatsoever to basketball in England, (or Scotland and Wales) but each Association has to make up its own mind as to whether or not it wants to be part of this program.
There are huge arguments for and against an Association participating in a GB program, some of which have been mentioned in this comments section.
England possibly is in a somewhat different position to Scotland and Wales since, as has been mentioned elsewhere, it will always be the case that English players will form the bulk basis of any GB team.
“massive investment of the 1990s which brought professional teams filled largely with British players to the major arenas across the country”.
erm no : With the investment came 6 americans per team and virtually no british players. And the reason they jumped to NTL was because NTL offered them a milllion quid which they desperately needed to keep those big Arena franchises going as they were haemorrhaging money.
It’s off topic but I think it’s important to ge this clear. The move to arenas began before the move to 5 foreigners plus one naturalised player which you are right in saying translated to 6 Americans. The BBL in collaboration with EB went to that rule in reaction to the Bosman ruling arguing that the league was going to lose all of it’s English/British talent – I think in practice a grand total of 5 players left UK on better contracts – also saying the league simply could not afford to pay market rate for European players and with five Americans the standard would go up.
some of the clubs did bring in better foreigners but the majority simply spread the two player budget across five Americans, only teams wanting to compete in Europe spent anything on local players and I don’t think any club excpet Towers and maybe Leopards brought in any Europeans.
The arena costs were being borne out by individual owners so had no impact on the league as a whole. TV coverage was excellent, sponsorship revenues at that time were the strongest the league ever achieved and attendances were at a level never since visited.
And nobody said that they were stupid for taking NTL money but Sky weren’t even given the chance to offer a counter bid.
As to my original post, this is another example where the administrators made the wrong decision putting personal interests ahead of all else. So if anything your reply supports my position.
Again, the only difference we’re talking about would be participation in Division C. Right? Can someone confirm this? Basketball Wales would remain in place and fulfil all its functions (increase participation, development of elite athletes, use funding prudently). There is no reason anywhere to say that GB ‘takes over’ on those fronts from Basketball Wales. No one here as confirmed this.
So Seeley, wouldn’t it better to have those 1 or 2 players being able to represent GB? Have an incentive for those players? Aren’t those players going to change their nationality to ‘England’ if they have a chance?
The other question I’ve got. How many of the Welsh national team players have actually been developed in Wales? We’ve had kids from Sheffield playing for Wales and I’ve recognized a lot of the Manchester players as well. They all ‘became’ Welsh after not making the regional team, or dropping off at a higher level in the England selection process and they recognized that their chances of playing for England were not realistic. And then suddenly they discover their Welsh roots. I find it extraordinary that players are upset at Gordon coming in to claim ‘their’ place, when there are similarities in the national team selection in the first place.
The representation of ‘Welsh national identity’ again is actually much better in a GB construction. The Welsh players would even get two routes of making the GB team.
How depressing must it be for an aspiring basketball player in Wales to read ‘we don’t have a shot a playing high level basketball anyway’; ‘we’re too short.’ Again, where’s the aspiration? And with GB, you can still play a tournament with the likes of Gibraltar and Malta, but also other international tournaments as Wales, but just not in the FIBA tournament. The prestige of that friendly tournament could easily be a far more prestigious event than Division C–you’ve got to be honest about the status of that tournament.
The GB structure should provide a huge incentive for Basketball Wales to fulfil its mission.
To me:
The argument about maintaining a Welsh identity falls apart in the scenario of keeping Wales separate.
The incentive of playing for Wales is only there for ‘the ones who don’t make it’ (that’s the rhetoric of the actual statement!)
Rather than rhetoric, come with the figures and the facts:
Is it all about the ability to participate in Division C? Don’t forget, Division B is actually an open competition, so anyone can enter. There is no FIBA reward mechanism for winning Division C (promotion) or anything like it. It is a friendly tournament organized by FIBA.
How many of the Welsh players have been developed in Wales?
Would the Board (the ones who voted for this), lose their jobs in a GB structure?
As far as I am aware it is exactly as you say, the only thing that is actually being lost in a merger is the ability to participate in FIBA competitions, that along with a vote on FIBA decisions which would become one GB vote, rather than the 3 votes we currently have.
The Bristish Basketball Federation always knew that Wales would reject the merger:
This is part of the release by Bill McInnes:
“Unexpectedly Basketball Wales has already intimated to FIBA its Board’s resolution. Although its resolution not to support affiliation through the British Basketball Federation was anticipated, the final consideration by FIBA awaits the resolutions from England and Scotland which will be notified to FIBA by 30th June 2012.”
So all that has happened is that Basketball Wales have come out and said no meaning that we would not have to hear more stories about surveys, workshops etc on how the home nations are working together to find a common solution for away forward.
I think a lot of money and time has been wasted on a debate that had just one outcome. Now it will be left to the home nations to move forward as they wish
What must people have forgotten, GB replaced England when this was set up. England kept the youth teams up to U18 and dropped the rest. The England senior team briefly came together when it appeared that a commonwealth basketball tournament (not the games) was on the horizon.
So as it stands, it is England Basketball that has lost the most if this merger does not happen. The way I see things happening: GB will remain under the guise of England – the budget will be reduced from the funding bodies but it will mean Eurobasket, Word Championships etc. (I am basing this on Scotland going the same way as Wales) willl be possible
However if Scotland agree for the merger then England and Scotland basketball disappears from all FIBA sanctioned events from U16 to senior then the Union would be stronger.
As the commonwealth is not of any interest to FIBA, England and Scotland could field teams for these events. However for this to work basketball Wales must be made aware that once a player plays for Wales they will not be allowed to play for GB under any circumstances.
This might sound harsh but this is the only way forward which could make them reconsider.
What everybody needs to understand (outside basketball) since FIBA split into the zones, the only way British basketball can compete in the Olympic qualifying events which is EuroBasket, it has to be Great Britain. Even if FIBA Europe allows the home nations to compete as singe countries FIBA will not sanction qualification for the world events.
SO even if one of the home nations became European Champions, FIBA would say no for the World Championships or Olympic games depending on what year.
So this would leave England have only the Euro C or whatever it will be called since Div B has been abolished from senior basketball. So lets wait and see what Bill has up his sleeves since he anticipated the decision would not be unanimous
I can’t imagine for a second Scotland would choose to dissolve their team in favour and loose their independence and funding… lets face it, it would essentially be the death of the game north of the border.
After reading Drew Sullivans comments I have to agree with him. This is a very selfish decision made by people that have no idea about what damage this will do to the reputation to basketball in this country. It has been made probably by (to quote Will Carling) “A BUNCH OF OLD FARTS” who have nothing but there own interests (and probably jobs).
I feel sorry for the young Welsh players who will have no aspiration other than to compete with Gibraltor. Wow I can really see that bringing in the crowds. How many will never get the chance to be scouted by European/International scouts or teams. To be told basically that we do not think that you are good enough to play at the highest level must be a real kick in the teeth. Still I suppose the only saving grace for the Welsh Federation is that they must be looking forward to going to the Welsh Parliment to ask for more funding because basketball in Wales is going to need to raise the funding from somewhere.
VERY SELFISH decision and I am sorry to say that they have shot themselves in the foot.
If you turn this on its head its very selfish of all those few GB wannabees to stop a young welsh, scottis or english player from aspiring to be an international. You also should remember that people have died in the small countries because they were so committed to their nation.
I don’t think you will find many more patriotic Scots than Kieron Achara, but he is proud to represent GB.
The point is that alone Scotland or Wales can never realistically hope to compete in European and World Championships. However as part of team GB players like Kieron have that opportunity.
Scottish, Welsh and English players that are not quite good enough for team GB will still become internationals for thier respective home nation. They will just not be playing in FIBA competitions.
This is the very reason I don’t understand the Welsh decision. Euro C is basically a friendly tournament anyway, so essentially nothing is being lost! If Scotland was only competing in Euro C every year it would be a no brainer to join GB. The only reason for doubt in Scotland is because we have recently sent some teams to Euro B and they have competed well.
Basketball Wales …….man up….start producing and stop punishing Brit Ball for you drastic under achievement….division C? Have some pride/ aspiration…. Play Spain & the USA not Luxembourg & Andorra…. Team GB is the way forward …Brit Ball stand up….we will find a way to get to Eurobaskets and World Championships then fight for Rio 2016… Leaving the deadweights behind ….. England and Scotland to go at it alone
The only things that truly matter in regards to the decision is what Wales stood to gain, and what they stood to lose. They stood to gain absolutely nothing, and stood to lose independence in FIBA. Everything else is ultimately irrelevant. In any other aspect of life nobody is going to vote to give up something they value, for nothing at all.
Duco:
I appreciate your sensible comments, and can genuinely see your side of the argument, but Wales simply doesn’t have the necessary talent pool to produce multiple players for GB, and even if we did the chances of Wales producing such players is close to 0 without investment in grass roots basketball. Something which obviously was not on offer from GB; you can argue that GB’s remit is to concentrate on the Elite, but what does this offer Wales? We are in desperate need of investment in grass roots/standard of coaching/ facilities etc but again GB offered no support in this area. So essentially Wales were being asked to give up their own Elite performance program (however poor that may be) to allow GB’s to exist, there is simply no incentive.
I will try to answer your questions with facts and figures where possible, but I would like to start by saying that to my knowledge Wales has produced 2 players in their history who have potential to play for GB, and they happen to be arguably the only two players with true size we have ever had . A former friend of mine the late Stuart Robbins played numerous years at Kaiserslautern in what I believe was the Bundesliga, possibly the 2nd Division (Pro A?) and later at Bayern Munich, he could potentially have made a GB roster 10-15 years ago, although I’m not sure how he would compare to other big men at the time. And we currently have a 17year old who I won’t name in the interest of his privacy who is playing in Madrid (I don’t know the name) and could potentially make a GB u20 team in 2 years if he improves, I don’t wish to say more as it is unfair on him. That is it, that is the sum total of potential GB players we have ever produced. We have however, produced quite a few professionals (I cannot give you exact figures but it is probably more than most would expect) and some of those have gotten contracts on the back of their performance in Division C/The Small Nations.
In my opinion, Wales could theoretically produce elite shooters, I think given our talent pool this would be the most realistic type of player that could be produced with an improved system. However, there aren’t exactly many of those in the GB team (by this I don’t mean none of them can shoot, just that the GB staff haven’t exactly been keen on picking specialist shooters). There are several British 3 pt shooters in the BBL and they are nowhere near the GB team. That is the currently the best case scenario for players produced in Wales, so I can’t see how you can expect Wales to produce several players who could play for GB. I reiterate this is not a lack of aspiration, but the realistic view of someone with knowledge of the talent available in a country with a population of just 3 million, that is completely dominated by rugby.
You are right regarding the status of Division C, however, regardless of how you feel about the standard (incidentally, I agree that it is not great) it represents competitive basketball for your country. There actually are some decent players in the tournament by the way, for example in addition to 7’4 centre from Benetton Treviso, Malta have Joshua Jackson a “maltese-american” guard who plays with Ryan Richards for Sokhumi Tblisi. While it may not be Gasol and Rubio, it does present a good challenge for Welsh players. Competitive International basketball, whether it’s against Spain or Malta brings an immense sense of pride for the athletes involved, especially if you are representing a country you care deeply about. Division C is a competitive tournament, organised to allow countries with small populations to compete with their peers as opposed to losing heavily to bigger nations like they do in football. The reason there is no promotion is the issue of funding, Denmark for example played in Division C in 2010 because they couldn’t afford to enter a team into Division B, while Luxembourg several years ago were able to get the funding necessary to compete in Division B so moved up.
I have to say I disagree 100% that “The representation of ‘Welsh national identity’ again is actually much better in a GB construction”. In your scenario the Wales team would take on a similar existence to the current England team, which I know several English players would prefer not to represent. Friendly tournaments simply do not bring the same sense of pride. Additionally I don’t believe Wales would be able to participate in these prestigious friendly tournaments you talk of, as the reality is without the funding assistance FIBA provides for their official competitions Wales would be unable to afford to take part. Fair enough more could be done to satisfy the Sports Council of Wales, or raise outside funds, but that is the case at present. But more importantly than any of this, the people of Wales are passionately patriotic, and most consider themselves Welsh and not British, there is simply no way any welshman would consider the sense of national identity to be greater in a GB construction. I don’t expect many Englishmen to fully understand this, but I’m sure there are plenty of Scots who do, and this is why I fully expect them to follow suit.
I am unsure who exactly would lose their jobs etc, but my understanding is that Basketball Wales would not have the same level of control as they currently do. Although in theory this is not necessarily a bad thing, considering the lack of interest in welsh basketball from GB you can see why it could be considered so. Even if that side of it remained the same, there would be no additional funding for them to do anything with, so even if nothing is really lost, still nothing would be gained.
Unfortunately you are spot on in regards to the number of Welsh players who have not come directly through the Welsh system. Although, while there are some who represent Wales just because they can, this is a minority and most of those who have come from outside strongly consider themselves to be Welsh, just happen to have been raised in England. I can see your argument regarding the similar issue with GB, but in my opinion there is a big difference between someone who may not have come through the GB system but is passionate to play for GB, and someone like Ben Gordon who has shown no interest in anything other than the actual Olympic tournament.
I can appreciate that some people will no doubt still feel this is the wrong decision by Basketball Wales, and some have expressed their opinion and are right to do so, but some of the comments on here from people with no knowledge of Welsh Basketball are naive and insulting, this is the exact kind of attitude that led to the decision in the first place. I feel sorry for anyone who will lose the chance to play top level international basketball due to this decision, but in my opinion this could, and probably should be achieved by England Basketball. Wales were offered absolutely nothing from the merger, so there was no way they were ever going to say yes, GB basketball must shoulder some of the responsibility for this admittedly regrettable situation.
A few interesting observations about this magical organisation that is GB, that we must all take into account:
1. Pretty much all GB coaches are not British
2. Roughly half of the senior teams rely upon ‘plastic brits’: born elsewhere/raised elsewhere/never step foot in the UK, etc
3. Luol Deng’s Olympic insurance – which, although the fact he is the best player ever produced and an amazing role model, is likely not to result in an Olympic medal or top 5 finish, hence no real increase in subsequent governing body funding – alone could probably sustain the national team programmes across all ages, of every home nation, for at least a full season
4. A number of junior national teams, Wales as well as England, have actually been quite successful in recent years, and at that age, according to you all, GB has had no bearing on their development
5. GB apparently had proposed regular competitions for the home nations if they did agree to merge….why were they not doing these anyway? surely a worthwhile exercise, at little cost considering the insurance money it has to shell out (Gordon permitting…..dont worry, he is fully committed…he is allowed to train by himself in Detroit, and GB still dote over him???)
Croeso y Cymru, I must say I dissagree with almost every point you have made.
1. With the expection of the men’s senoir coaching staff (all of whom have ties to GB), there are 4 other non British coaches that I can think off. Although this is not ideal, I am sure that british coaches will be given more jobs at lower age groups. The bottom line is we have appointed some world class coaches. This is not seen as a problem for welsh rugby?!
2.Very few of the senoir teams are ‘plastic brits’. I can only think of Reinking, Johnson, Deng, Gordon, Butler, Vanderwal and Stafford, who fit your born/raised elsewhere criteria. That is 7 players out of around 30 still in contention. Also all of these players have true connections to GB, unlike some of the americans you see playing for other european countries.
3. I don’t think you can put a price on the potential the olympics could have on GB basketball and if we have any chance of a medal its with Deng in the team. You also couldn’t ask for a better role model.
4. It is good that the youth teams have been doing well, maybe the GB team have inspired these young players to set higher targets.
I fail to understand why there are so many negative views from all the welsh people on this.
Most probobly becuase most people who write here do not know the welsh situation and are only looking at the GB situation as it would effect them.
I am English, played with England National Teams at youth level when the age groups were u15, u17 and u19. I have worked in National Team programmes both in England and Wales. I have coached at most levels in the EB structure as well as in Germany. I am sorry but I have to agree with Seeley4, Basketball Wales has to do what it thinks is correct for Wales.
I appreciate the views here. To be honest, I still don’t see the negative impact for Basketball Wales except this ability to participate in Div C. All the things that Basketball Wales have in their remit now, will remain in their remit, except the ability to run a FIBA national team. They may still develop elite talent in a national team, but not in a FIBA tournament. Div C is also not free and the funding (or players’ contribution–it’s the same everywhere) could be used to participate in international tournaments, where there are probably more scouts than at Div C (and if they are there, they are there for an already known talent, such as the 7’4 player from Malta).
My point about representing Wales. Imagine yourself in the position of the 17-year old currently in Madrid. He probably will have a chance to represent England or Wales (or, if there’s a new FIBA construct and Scotland would join), GB or Wales. What do you think would be the best career path for this player? Representing Wales or GB. If Wales go at it alone, it means if you’ve ever represented Wales, you can never switch. The Welsh proposal basically gives up on the elite talent of this player in favour of the ones who will never have a ‘realistic’ chance. That to me is so incredibly defeatist and anti-elite talent development, and the message to the talented aspirational players is basically, if you want to develop into an elite player, don’t come here. We cater for the ones who never have a realistic chance of making it. That’s what I mean.
The related point is that the current Welsh situation makes the critique of the ‘plastic Brits’ so hypocritical. Again, where are the Welsh players based and at what point did they decide to represent Wales? All the players I know who play for Wales have failed in the selection process for England, often already at the regional stages. And then they decided to discover their Welsh roots and take advantage of dual nationality. Nothing wrong with that. How is this different from the ‘plastic Brits’ who’s first choice would be to represent the US, but who already fail at the first stage, to discover their UK roots? Structurally, it is entirely similar. The sentiment may be different but let’s be honest. How many of the Welsh players are Welsh speakers? I genuinely do not know and am ready to be amazed at the positive figure, but let’s be honest about it. Not have all this rhetoric.
But here is the paradox. If Wales were part of GB, the players would potentially get 2 shots at selection (first the regional trials and then the Welsh trials) without ever having to give up their Welsh nationality to play at the highest international level. The 17-year old in Madrid would never have to relinquish his chance to represent Great Britain and could continue to fly the Welsh flag.
Now the GB bashing thing and ‘they have never done anything for us’ and ‘we are going to get swallowed up’ argument.
After GB was set up (only after!), the U13, U15, U17 Welsh teams have played in the annual selection tournaments of the UK regions; if I’m not mistaken, they are also at the Bristol camp this weekend. None of that was in place prior to GB and those ‘elite pathways’ now make up a big part of the Welsh elite performance structure. Those opportunities (and teams?) will disappear if Wales go at it alone.
All GB coaches are non-British. Very true. They are not English and they are not Scottish either. A big concern, but not a singular ‘Welsh’ one. I can even see the reason for this being that GB didn’t want to get into the nationalist trap of ‘there are only English/Scottish/Welsh’ coaches (pick any of the three).
The Ben Gordon saga to me is completely unrelated (it’s more to do with his attitude or complications none of us our privy to).
The UK Athletics trials are on. All members represent both their country (Wales, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland) and GB and will go to the Olympics if they finish in the top 2 and have hit the international standard. Each country, still has its own athletics board. Team GB have a ‘foreign’ coach. Why does it work there?
Because of this decision, Wales may become completely isolated in the UK basketball scene, in terms of national competitions (teams now competing in the EBL), elite performance (no longer U13, U15, U17 in the UK tournaments), and have fewer ‘Welsh’ talents (more players opting to try to play at higher level and not take advantage of dual nationality).
I have not heard an argument that makes me think, ah, now I understand how this is in the best interest of Wales Basketball–it’s defeatist. All I see is nationalist rhetoric covering up the actual make up of Wales elite development and a spiteful use of power to show they’ve got that power to throw the bomb. It may all backfire. Just imagine what the future will now hold for Wales Basketball. Patrick Baumann’s short statement brings a bit of hope to the GB project.
Personally I am delighted with the Welsh decision.
Hoping that Scotland will follow suit, and lets face it, based on 95% of the reaction from english people being the usual spit the dummy attitude I’m more confident than ever that Scotland will continue to go it alone.
I’m a proud english man, who lives in North Wales, speaks the welsh language and loves the scenery. I’m not British, I’m english but if GB take part in anything, then I support GB as passionately as anyone.
Seeley4 makes some extremely valid points, and like his game, is insightful and ahead of his countrymen. Having picked up my dummy, I thought I’d write this comment based on fact, experience and a deep seated hatred for all things corrupt. I’ve kept my personal feelings away from this comment and reserved them for my personal blog.
For those of us “in the know”, knew that Basketball Wales could never be part of the GB set up owing to some of its “committee members” being self serving, nepotist, corrupt and shortsighted. Basketball Wales has had more than enough time and chances to gain funding to improve the game and they’ve failed.
The decision isn’t based on basketball, its about self preservation and politics. From the moment GB were accepted into the Olympics, we were all destined to fragment after the games. Don’t be surprised, it’s all about BW’s politicians keeping their comfy positions and adding Team GB onto their CV when they apply for jobs.
Funding for the Basketball Association of Wales came directly from The Sports Council of Wales. In 2006, the welsh basketball’s governing body were warned by The Sports Council of Wales to update their governance policy and bring it into line with that of England Basketball. After 2 years of nothing, the Sports Council of Wales pulled the plug on all funding for basketball in Wales and its new “professional” reincarnation Basketball Wales.
The funding for improvement is sitting there, available from the Sports Council of Wales, but unattainable because of the “old boys network” that prevails. Try setting up a basketball club in North Wales and you’ll hit a brick wall immediately. Try accessing funding to sustain your club and it suddenly gets thicker. If you can’t start a club without being part of the “committee”, what chance have the players got to play the game?
National Teams
The welsh national team set up is a joke. The U16, U18 and U20′s are run by english coaches, using “plastic” welsh players and getting nowhere. I’m over the moon that players not considered good enough for England, decide to play for Wales rather than leave the sport. I for one am totally against “naturalised” individuals competitng for GB.
However, my opinion isn’t the point here. If Wales is going to “import” players, the very least they could do is support them with quality coaching and a development program that’s the equal of the other Home Nations. When England or Scotland have national team training, its organised, professionally managed and has a clear structure. In Wales it’s a shambles and more about “names” than talent. There are welsh players currently playing national league in a few established clubs that have never been given the chance to represent their country. Why?
Simple, the “committee” either doesn’t like the players’ coach, their parent or the player themselves. I’ve actually seen, heard and been a victim of the BW “committee” members selecting a national team and the coaching staff prior to training and or games.
GB invited FOUR U18 players from North Wales to attend a training camp in Bristol. Only ONE actually got an invitation. Two of the players went on to play in Spain for a year and they never managed to gain an invitation for a trial to play for Wales at U18 or U20 level. One of them will be going to the USA to play and he’s never had any contact with BW regarding playing Senior Mens in the Commonwealth or friendlies. The other considered playing for Scotland, his father’s scottish, and they invited him to trials. The third player left the sport disillusioned.
I’ve been privileged to have been given an insight into Basketball Scotland and discussed the set up and Talent ID programme. It’s light years ahead of the welsh system and run by some of the most professional, organised and open coaches I’ve had the pleasure to meet.
Basketball Wales doesn’t deserve to be part of the GB set up while it lives in the Dark Ages. Basketball in Wales will remain something that’s done to tick a box. Don’t blame GB for the ills of the welsh game, basketball players and coaches in Wales ought to look at the people in power and ask the question “What have you done?”.
Just spat the dummy out again.
Wales has a population of just over 3 million players. Serbia has a population of about 7 million. Whilst this is double that of Wales, the basketball output bears no comparison.
What counts is quality organisation,and the the quality and outlook of the personnel who have the responsibility for basketball development. One is quite introspective while the other is very much extrospective.
I am truly staggered by this! I hope Scotland & FIBA see the big picture, leave Wales to continue to be inept, and show them up for what they really are.
Scotland vote to maintian Team GB!
“Despite this being an extremely complex decision, with pro’s and con’s for each option, following detailed consideration of the options available, the Board was unanimous in its decision.
With responsibility to take decisions for the best interests of the Sport in Scotland, the Board decided unanimously to support the proposed future British Basketball Structure.
The Board is firmly of the view that there are major benefits for Scottish athletes and the player pathway in Scotland available from working as an equal partner in a British Basketball structure.
The Board considered information provided by FIBA, British Basketball, sportscotland, UK Sport, the membership and various other partners. Through the process, the Board was able to ensure that Scotland would be an equal partner in British Basketball and that there would be additional benefits for Scottish Basketball.”
It looks like the Welsh were right for themselves after all. Now the two remaining federations must decide how they move forward and who will pick-up the costs.It won’t be any direct funding, that’s for sure. Lots of red faces all around,mainly from the British Basketball managers and directors who were so vocal and overconfident a few months back..
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