I somehow missed BUCS announcing the English Universities team for 09/10 season being selected a few week backs (perhaps to do with the fact BUCS have the most un-user friendly site on the web!). And it defo deserved being posted up here. The selected team looks like this:
Albert Margai (Leeds Carnegie)
Charlando Brown (LSBU)
Zoltan Supola (Leeds Carnegie)
Chris Pearce (Northumbria)
Antonio Avelino (LSBU)
Ladi Brown (Leeds Carnegie) (Captain)
Myles Hesson (Wolverhampton)
Adrian Fenyn (Leeds Carnegie)
Armand Anebo (LSBU)
Michael Medved (Leeds Carnegie)
Reed Doucette (Oxford)
Laurie Lewis (LSBU)
Reserves
Bud Johnston (Chichester University)
Damian Cope (Worcester)
Roy Owen (Worcester)
Though I can’t really argue with any of those choices as they are all talented ballers, I personally thought, along with a few others I spoke to, that it seemed suspect that with the Head coach being Matt Newby (Leeds Met), no less than 5 of his players have been selected for the squad.
I dropped Coach Newby an email to ask him his thoughts on this and to his credit he provided with a very well written and thought out response:
“I am confident that people will always be critical of a situation when they sit outside of the process and only see a team list.
There were to trials one in the north at Leeds Metropolitan University and the 2nd at LSBU. These were well publicised and the deadline for application was extended twice to insure we gave everybody the opportunity to make an application. These trials were 3 to 4 hours in length broken down in to skill sets 3vs 3 4vs 4 and 5 vs 5 scrimmages. Both were open to any university based basketball player.
Due to the nature of some players commitments to their national league programmes some athletes could not trial at the geographically favourable venue and were offered the opportunity to travel to the other. Some athletes chose not to trial at all and some never showed up after registering their interest. The selection and decisions were ultimately the call of my self and our excellent staff with strong basketball reputations Steven Vear and Andrew Powlesland offer invaluable insight and I feel we have put together a team which is representative of the talent that attended the trial.
The reality is that there are some players out there which have not made the selection due to their commitment to national league, commitment to academics or personal circumstance and others make your decisions easier when they walk through the door late with an inappropriate attitude and a false sense of entitlement.
There are some players I would have liked to have seen at the trials. Look at the depth of Durham and in particular their back court Scott Morton and Paul Elderkin who are huge contributors to the success of the National League Programme currently fighting at the top of D2. London Mets roster is abundant with talent but only one player was able to attend and I think they are incredible focused on the challenges that Division 1 basketball presents so I can accept that. We would have loved to see Steven Danley return from oxford but I am informed he has a field study the week of BUG’s, which would have provided us with some tough decisions about the big men available.
There were certainly some tough omissions you look at likes of Stephen Danso (Coventry), Uche Umekwe (Birmingham)as well as David Ajumobi and Jon Johnson of (LSBU) and look at those named as alternates Bud Johnston (Chichester) Damian Cope and Roy Owen of (Worcester). The talent pool was of a high quality and the decisions were not easy.
People will ask questions about institutions who have multiple representatives in the squad and invariably comment on the fact that this season 5 are from my own team and I have no problem with that.
We are charged with selecting the best team available to compete in the BUG’s tournament in April. I feel we have achieved this.”
On reading this it definitely makes things clearer, and like Coach Newby states it is difficult to judge when you are just looking at the team sheet on paper. Without being at trials you don’t know what went on, and who played well. I did however, instantly notice that Newby mentioned Andy Powlesland, head coach of LSBU was part of the selection team. Four LSBU players were selected for the team. Hmmm. Nine of the fifteen players selected are coached by the members of the selection panel.
I don’t blame Coach Newby or Powlesland, as I think any coach in the same position would do the same thing-you know your players, and you have seen them a lot more so have had way longer to evaluate them, but this is one of the key ‘political’ problems with British basketball.
If you are not ‘known’, or haven’t been seen before on the circuit, you rarely get a look.
My opinion? Though I reserve passing full judgement, as I wasn’t present at the trials (something I’m going to try and make sure of next year), I think BUCS should use a coach that is not coaching/involved with any university side, or use a selection panel at trials that does not include people with direct links to universities, to avoid giving people such as myself a chance to even form an opinion!
What do you think?
{ 22 comments… read them below or add one }
Is Bud Johnson still at uni….. MOVE ON !
Interestingly enough, Martin Ford had been the Head Coach of this very team for the past 7 years and for the past 2 years did not select any of his own players, and having seen them play I would have thought 2 of his players were easily good enough to make that squad, one of the criteria for this position is that the coach is coaching a english unis team. Easy to be critical of Newbys selection but the proof will be in the pudding!
Phil, first off, it’s Johnston lol, second of all, did he even go to uni in the first place? He’s been playing pro overseas for a few years, as well as having a couple of seasons here for various teams…he’s on a scholarship a Chichester, doing what I believe is his first undergrad…
Definitely agree with you Rem, the intention of this wasn’t to be critical, just to point out mere coincidences and assumptions a lot of others will make. I’ve got a lot of respect for Newby, especially for his response to my email and this wasn’t published to disrespect him anyway.
If this team ends up going and smashing it at BUGS then there shouldn’t be any complaints from anyone!
Forget having a selection panel – 1 trial only max. It is up to the coach to the select the team. The coach should know the majority of his team without needing a trial. If he doesn’t know the guys, then he shouldn’t get the job in the first place.
We are far too concerned in this country with giving everybody a ‘fair’ shot. By doing so, we cut down the prep time available to the selected team!!
Forget fairness – pick who you want in your team. A selection team is rarely made up of the 12 best players.
Should be a totally independent coaching setup. Don’t care what the guy says, you’re never getting a fair representation when he coaches them 3-4 times a week then has to evaluate them vs guys he’s seen maybe 3-4 times in a year.
Spent the past 30 years heavily involved in Greek basketball and find the method of picking the England Team totally unfair. Greek players would never have to go to trials to play for their country -totally on their performance in their individual teams. Come on England – get yoursselves sorted out – so unprofessional – no wonder they get nowhere in basketball.
Danny-Interesting thoughts, though I don’t think any coach given that kind of job would know enough about every player at the trials/in BUCS? There just isn’t the information available unless a prospective coach is going to scout a number of games on the season.
John-I agree with you.
Janet-I think it’s hard for anyone to select a team based solely on players performances during the season as I’m pretty sure there isn’t one person that has seen enough games across BUCS to make that decision, on top of that full stats are not done from each game so again there is no way of looking at those, and there is little or no media coverage… maybe a kind of scouting network is something that needs to be set up? Full stats on every game would be a huge step forward.
ladi brown is an eng. uni’s regular, and mike medved and adrian fenyn are possibly the best 4-5 combination in university basketball. not entirely sure about the backcourt, but there’s no glaring omissions, and 5 players that know each other will only be a benefit for newby- look at the all-star game a couple of years ago that was won by 4 pistons!
It’s tough on the coaches who have to pick these side’s. From his reply it’s pretty obvious that Newby did more than enough to give everyone a fair shot……remember these people give up a lot of their time for little personal reward…….its for the love of the game.
@Christian Agree with you that having players that know each other will be of benefit. In terms of glaring omissions, it’s so hard to say without knowing who actually turned up at trials (thought I am starting to agree with people that there shouldn’t even be trials, and people should be judged on regular season performance through scouting).
@Gavin Great comment. Couldn’t agree with you more…though it brings on the whole issue of why aren’t these people being paid for their efforts Haha! Too much of basketball in this country is based around ‘the love of the game’, though that is a great thing in some regards, it also means a lot of things aren’t done properly as people don’t have the time or resources to do so.
While i dont profess to know the answer to the problem, i dont think you could use regular season performances through scouting, that would mean that you would either have to ignore the differing standard of basketball across the leagues and regions, or quantify it somehow? It is for that reason you couldnt use stats as well. The only fair way is through a trials process. That process may need to change, and while the english side may win at BUGS, the lack of fairness comes from those that are unable to take part but have the talent or ability, those that cant or dont wish to take part cannot be accounted for.
A scouting network would be great. There are loads of talented up and coming coaches who would love the opportunity to get some scouting experience and knowledge while doing their national uni team a favour. Video some games, write up their opinions. Get it on their CV at the same time. They would just work at their local university watching 3-4 BUCS games per season and sending in reports on prospects via e-mail in a set format for coach to evaluate. Maybe have one meeting per season to set criteria and needs then go out and scout!
John, great idea, if a little unacheivable. Anyone at university who is qualified enough to analyse from a basketball perspective will most probably be hellaciously busy on BUCS Wednesday’s as it is. Besides, their reports will not be neutral so very hard to measure. The only really helpful thing would be to have every game recorded, though what coach will have the time to sit down and watch every Wednesday game in a week? Not one with any basketball commitments outside of the English Uni’s team.
Sure, I’m being an idealist of course. But unless thinking around these things starts changing, it’s always going to stay the same. Sam gets about filming games and I’m sure would give some good analysis. I’d be happy to do it for free providing travel expenses were covered. The team must have some kind of budget (and if not, why not? get some sponsorship!) To be honest, you’re not covering everyone, only those players nominated by their coach for example (so there shouldn’t be too much running around). Just ideas of course, if anyone wants to add to them be my guest :D
Is that the the best 12 players playing BUCS at the moment? No. Is it the best 12 that attended trials? Possibly. With the current selection process I have no concerns about any of the Leeds Met guys making the team, those 5 probably are 5 of the best 12 players playing right now. As for the South Bank guys, I haven’t seen much of them, but I would say there are far better big men that Laurie Lewis.
Something that I don’t agree with is the American’s being eligible to play! If you look at that team, there’s 4 American’s and 1 European. If I was the coach I’d rather select 12 British guys, who are all going to be in University here for 3 years, and who it would mean a lot to, to be selected for the team, as opposed to American’s who are here for 1 year, aren’t really bothered about making the team, and are primarily in this country to play National League and don’t have much interest in BUCS.
I could go on about the selection process but what the point….
@Mike totally agree with you with regards to those who cant or don’t wish to take part cannot be accounted for. It would definitely be interesting to find out who was at trials. With regards to differing standards across leagues, yes it’s true and makes it more difficult, but any good coach/scout should be able to tell when a player can play or not regardless of who he is playing against.
@John, a scouting network I think is definitely one of the best options..
@Christian Though it may be hard to find someone who has the time to analyse games, I do think it is possible. Retired coaches who only coach have a lot of time on their hands. On the same basis if you had a coaching team, it wouldn’t have to be down to one sole individual. Maybe the English Unis team should find sponsorship to employ people to get on that full time (perhaps unrealistic, but I think if someone really wanted to it could be done.
@Craig definitely agree with you about selecting English players. Kinda ironic that the England Universities starting 5 is likely to have at least 3 non-English players in it. Like you say, it is so hard to quantify without knowing who was at the trials, but even looking at the list of reserves-I would choose Bud Johnston over any of the selected guards.
Total garbage. Why is anyone surprised that the two teams who made the BUCS final have numerous players selected? Why would you appoint a coach who doesn’t know the leagues, standard of players etc? Is it a surprise that they chose the coach of one of the strongest uni programmes?
The ‘scouting network’ idea is ridiculous. Why would any coach base his selections on scouting reports from randoms around the country when he knows a lot of the players already and can see others at 2 trials? Trying to select a team by committee is nonsense, and never works.
I thought Newby’s reply was excellent – detailed and diplomatic. Mine would have been “My team won the championship. I know how my players can perform, and I know most of the other good players because I coach against them. Shut the feck up.”
A very heated debate here, some really good points.
First point I’d like to make with Newby Head Coach and Powesland picking the team and 9 of their players in the squad surely that means there are 9 guys whoth coach will know the most about, how they play the little details of their game who they can trust etc, surely an important thing for a team that wants to win.
Noone is questioning the Northern Ireland team, 9 players from the University of Ulster that Coach Deirdre Brennan is also in charge of, then the England Woman’s team 4 players from Leeds Carnegie have made the squad and the coach is Louise Waghorn not associated with Leeds Carnegie Basketball.
This is not an attack at you Sam you said yourself from Coach Newby’s reply justified the selection, I do agree however the selection process could be looked at, probably for all 5 Home Nations if we ever want Team GB to progress in World Basketball.
I like Coach K’s system with the US team, but of course it’s a little easier to scout NBA players then BUCS players. They pick about 35 players and invite them to a camp and then wittle them down to a 15 man squad I think, if England did that, you could get everyone together, see how they play together and then have a better idea of your best 12 players.
This could be combined with the system they currently use with the much younger kids, In Yorkshire the last Sunday of the month is left for APC all the best kids at various years get together and are put through their paces by some of the best coaches in Yorkshire, everyone then knows when and where it is, and the peope picking the squads have seen everyone interested and good enough to play, and can then make a educated decision on who should play, this could be done for the Home Nations aswell an the EBL could help with the scehdule making sure the dates are left to ensure the best players can go.
Something else that I was made aware of that shows the bad planning of the England College team, I was told by one of the players playing that he had to pay to play for England, I had never heard this before as I am in my first year involved in England Basketball at any level, I was astonsihed, a player has to pay to be part of his countries team, and with this player this made him not want to pay, you are in part buying your own medals, surely this has to change, for all we know this could also be a part of why certain players are missing.
The last point I wanted to make was about the nationalties issue, as a coach of Leeds Carnegie U15′s I know Adrian and Mike and they are really nice guys and noone doubts their talent but they shouldn’t be playing for England in an International competiton, the Home Nations should be made up of players eligeble to play for Team GB only, this can only be taking places away from talented British players in all the team competing, if Team GB/EnglandBasketball or BasketballScotland etc want to progress in the International stakes this needs to change ASAP.
Sorry for the massive post just wanted to get my points across.
I’m confused by the arguments about foreign players being picked. This is nothing to do with team selection, it’s about the nature of the competition itself. This isn’t an England national team at all, or Scotland etc – it’s English Universities. If you are arguing for a competition aimed at developing young British players, I’d suggest an age-group event, with no connection to universities. There is no reason to have a competition for home nations players aged, say, <23, and then restrict it to university students.
Second, the comparisons with the USA are pie in the sky. As you said, Andrew, scouting is not a problem for them. USA basketball also has an essentially unlimited budget and deals with pro players with a single defined season. The university students we are talking about have a lot of demands on them – academics, national league basketball etc – especially at this time of year, and not much money. It's clear that most of these home nation teams, if not all, will be missing some strong players because they are not available. How on earth would they realistically make it to training sessions throughout the year? And the EBL is going to restructure the season to accommodate tryouts for a 3-day tournament for 12 players?? Stop eating those brownies.
As for paying to play, I agree this is undesirable for "national" team players, but it's important to realise that player contributions are commonplace in the other home nations, and in small countries everywhere. The English teams' budgets are far, far bigger than the other three – so much so that the competition should be a farce every time – I'm told, fairly reliably, that the English team's budget a couple of years back was between 50-100 times greater than the Scottish team's. The fact that even "England"'s players will have to pay maybe shows how unrealistic some of the more expensive suggestions above are.
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve got.”
Yes this is the way things are, well done for pointing that out. Is this how we want things to carry on though? Why not try and plan to move in the right direction instead of laying blanket criticism over everything.
What “right direction”? My blanket criticism isn’t over everything – just over the ill-informed suggestions that have come up! Please don’t take it personally, I know I’m ranting a bit, but it is the internet after all :)
I’d offer suggestions for improvements if it was clear what the desired outcome was. What are these “improvements” being suggested for? What is wrong with the competition as it is? It is hardly a serious competition – 3 days at the end of the season. It’s a bit of a piss-up for some students and they get to hook up with one of the slutty Welsh birds. Trying to suggest “improvements” as if we’re discussing a serious tournament is pointless. “England” should win at a canter every single year, without any adjustments. Making this a bigger event is hardly a priority for basketball development in the UK. Trying to fix something that is not broken isn’t worth the hot air that’s being wasted.
There have been a lot of criticisms of the English selection process, but IMO they are all nonsense. The selection process is perfectly suitable. The implication that Newby has behaved inappropriately is ridiculous. The suggesred improvements are unworkable and, like hydraulic hairbrushes and left-handed pencils, are “solutions” to problems that don’t exist – in every case they would make the process worse.
Actually, there are plenty of people who have complained about the NI unis team in the past, which has been basically used as a training camp for the Uni of Ulster team and its 5 scholarship players (who incidentally didn’t win the Irish uni champs). There were actually 10 from UUJ, one from another Uni Ulster campus and only one from Queen’s. Most of the Queen’s players want nothing to do with the squad, and add that to the fact that NI is a 2 university country, there’s not going to be much choice.